I'm also a tad frustrated with diplomacy, though. One particular
game, Alexander was practically gushing every time he talked to
me. Then, without provocation, he attacked.
Unless an opponent has a reason to stay friendly -- rights of passage, mutual protection pacts, trade embargos, trading luxuries -- then they typically will attack you if they feel they have the upper hand. Pay close attention to your military advisor telling you that another civ outnumbers your forces. There is potential for an attack there.
Another game, three enemies allied against me, yet no one would
come to my aid... If anybody's played Imperialism, I prefer how
diplomacy is handled there. You seem to have more control over
how a nation treats you, and "friendships" are more
lasting.
But, why should anyone come to your aid for no reason?
Make use of mutual protection pacts as soon as you get Nationalism. And obtain pacts with more than one neighbour (hopefully not war-like ones so you are constantly at war. Very bad if you're a republic or democracy).
I'm also a tad frustrated with diplomacy, though. One particular
game, Alexander was practically gushing every time he talked to
me. Then, without provocation, he attacked.
Rather realistic that, Alexander went after everyone. If I remember right his relations with Persia were excellent right up until he crushed their main army and Darius' own troops killed him. ;-)
Rather realistic that, Alexander went after everyone. If I
remember right his relations with Persia were excellent right up
until he crushed their main army and Darius' own troops killed
him. ;-)
Yeah, next time he comes across as "Gracious" rather than merely "Polite", I'll be watching my back.
I had this big long response I wrote to your post last week and now I see it's not here. Maybe I forgot to submit it. Damn... I'll try to recreate bits of it...
How are they addressing it? I still am playing with 1.1.6 (out
of the box)... any reason I should patch?
1.17 had a lot of techincal bug fixes that for me were worth the update. There is also a very nice speed bump, and supposedly Quartz text is almost useable on faster machines (not mine). The biggest bug fixes solved a few random crashes and turned on most of the sounds for me. I had no music out of the box, and actually didn't even know the game had it until after the patch. I kinda like in-game music when it's not too annoying
However, the gameplay is a bit different as I was mentioning before. You can find long descriptions (or tirades) about it at civfanatics. Basically techs are quickly devalued for diplo trades after techs further up the tree are discovered. As a result, you'll find the AI civs all have just about the same tech tree since they trade with each other so frequently and there is no monitary barrier.
This makes it harder for you to use a high-powered science route to gain superiority over some of the civs. It also makes it possible (see some thread on civfanatics about this) to play most of the game with 0% science funding and just buy your techs when they become a bargain. You'll only ever be at most a few behind. Although this is certainly a viable strat in any game like this, it's apparently so easy in 1.17 that I (and others) really wanted them to fix it.
The Mac 1.21 patch isn't out and probably won't be for at least a few weeks from what I've read. Westlake is patching gratis since they don't have such things in their contract with MacSoft (Grrrr...). From what I read, they turned the devaluation down enough to make people happy. It will probably take a few more weeks until everyone has had a chance to really beat on it.
I agree with you on the advisor details... a big step back. I
also can't see why they only show Demographics and the Top Five
Cities until the very end of the game... unless of course I am
once again forgetting an option.
Demographics/Top Five is available w/ F11 in game.
The trade system is great... a vast improvement over the
previous caravan system. Not to mention it gets rid of caravan
bombing cities to build Wonders. I like the addition of Small
Wonders, too. But I think they should be rebuildable.
Yeah, small wonders are cool. But they should have added more that were harder to get each game, like the Iron Works. My last game (which I did win via spaceship) I was able to build just about all of them but that one. I think it would add more variety if there was a larger menu of these but most of which you could only build in every few games.
The new diplomacy options are nice, too. It would be nice to
have less "flat" opponents in terms of personality,
though.
Agreed.
Carch & I were chatting about the game last night...ya
missed out!
I've been thinking about getting back on Hotline again since my net connection has been so stable the last few months. What are you OS X guys using these days? Is RedLight still the best option?
1.17 had a lot of techincal bug fixes that for me were worth the
update. There is also a very nice speed bump, and supposedly
Quartz text is almost useable on faster machines (not mine). The
biggest bug fixes solved a few random crashes and turned on most
of the sounds for me. I had no music out of the box, and
actually didn't even know the game had it until after the patch.
I kinda like in-game music when it's not too annoying
I just installed the patch today because 1.1.6 was giving me some bad in-game windowing bugs lately (on your turn, popups to tell you that something had just been built would not pop up, but you could hit return to make them go away). It is a lot faster, but I noticed the tech devaluation right away. It sux! It should be put back to what it was in 1.1.6. I've gotten pretty good and whoring my techs away for large heaps of money!! As for the music, all in-game music sux and I rarely play with any game's music enabled. Gets way too monotonous.
Demographics/Top Five is available w/ F11 in game.
What other commands am I missing? And where are these key commands pointed out in the manual?
The user interface, in my opinion, is a piece of garbage. Little itty bitty buttons hidden in the corner are the only way to get to some commands. And others like this Top Five Cities are not even available anywhere on screen!
I've been thinking about getting back on Hotline again since my
net connection has been so stable the last few months. What are
you OS X guys using these days? Is RedLight still the best
option?
The user interface, in my opinion, is a piece of garbage. Little
itty bitty buttons hidden in the corner are the only way to get
to some commands. And others like this Top Five Cities are not
even available anywhere on screen!
I'm pretty sure all those little buttons have key equivalents. The diplomacy button is shift-D and I think the histogram button is shift-H.
All the keyboard shortcuts are in the PC manual, at least they're in the PDF version (which should be on your game CD). They're on pages 196-200.
I'm actually coming to think that it's not so much early expansion that's key, but securing borders and early *diplomacy*.
As Muff mentioned, getting (and keeping) rights of passage with your neighbors as soon as you have writing can save your butt. As can the mutual protection pacts later in the game.
When expanding, though, do it sparsely. Don't worry too much if they sneak a settler past your border -- if you're being efficient about building luxuries, you'll absorb that city before too long.
A technique I find useful to avoid surprise attacks is to keep in contact with all my neighbors (and everyone, after the oceans are open) every ten turns or so. If a nation thinks you're ignoring them, and they have the numbers, they'll waltz in. I've seen the exact behavior you describe from Big Gay Al, but when I give him a call every now and then he pretty much leaves me alone.
Another thing about early expansion -- go for luxuries and resources ASAP. If you're stuck in an area that's lean on luxuries and resources, bail. Unless you're a masochist and like to spend hours losing.
Comments
Unless an opponent has a reason to stay friendly -- rights of passage, mutual protection pacts, trade embargos, trading luxuries -- then they typically will attack you if they feel they have the upper hand. Pay close attention to your military advisor telling you that another civ outnumbers your forces. There is potential for an attack there.
But, why should anyone come to your aid for no reason?
Make use of mutual protection pacts as soon as you get Nationalism. And obtain pacts with more than one neighbour (hopefully not war-like ones so you are constantly at war. Very bad if you're a republic or democracy).
--MH
Rather realistic that, Alexander went after everyone. If I remember right his relations with Persia were excellent right up until he crushed their main army and Darius' own troops killed him. ;-)
Ramses II
Yeah, next time he comes across as "Gracious" rather than merely "Polite", I'll be watching my back.
I had this big long response I wrote to your post last week and now I see it's not here. Maybe I forgot to submit it. Damn... I'll try to recreate bits of it...
1.17 had a lot of techincal bug fixes that for me were worth the update. There is also a very nice speed bump, and supposedly Quartz text is almost useable on faster machines (not mine). The biggest bug fixes solved a few random crashes and turned on most of the sounds for me. I had no music out of the box, and actually didn't even know the game had it until after the patch. I kinda like in-game music when it's not too annoying
However, the gameplay is a bit different as I was mentioning before. You can find long descriptions (or tirades) about it at civfanatics. Basically techs are quickly devalued for diplo trades after techs further up the tree are discovered. As a result, you'll find the AI civs all have just about the same tech tree since they trade with each other so frequently and there is no monitary barrier.
This makes it harder for you to use a high-powered science route to gain superiority over some of the civs. It also makes it possible (see some thread on civfanatics about this) to play most of the game with 0% science funding and just buy your techs when they become a bargain. You'll only ever be at most a few behind. Although this is certainly a viable strat in any game like this, it's apparently so easy in 1.17 that I (and others) really wanted them to fix it.
The Mac 1.21 patch isn't out and probably won't be for at least a few weeks from what I've read. Westlake is patching gratis since they don't have such things in their contract with MacSoft (Grrrr...). From what I read, they turned the devaluation down enough to make people happy. It will probably take a few more weeks until everyone has had a chance to really beat on it.
Demographics/Top Five is available w/ F11 in game.
Yeah, small wonders are cool. But they should have added more that were harder to get each game, like the Iron Works. My last game (which I did win via spaceship) I was able to build just about all of them but that one. I think it would add more variety if there was a larger menu of these but most of which you could only build in every few games.
Agreed.
I've been thinking about getting back on Hotline again since my net connection has been so stable the last few months. What are you OS X guys using these days? Is RedLight still the best option?
I just installed the patch today because 1.1.6 was giving me some bad in-game windowing bugs lately (on your turn, popups to tell you that something had just been built would not pop up, but you could hit return to make them go away). It is a lot faster, but I noticed the tech devaluation right away. It sux! It should be put back to what it was in 1.1.6. I've gotten pretty good and whoring my techs away for large heaps of money!! As for the music, all in-game music sux and I rarely play with any game's music enabled. Gets way too monotonous.
What other commands am I missing? And where are these key commands pointed out in the manual?
The user interface, in my opinion, is a piece of garbage. Little itty bitty buttons hidden in the corner are the only way to get to some commands. And others like this Top Five Cities are not even available anywhere on screen!
I use Frogblast and I am very happy with it.
--Der Muffinkopf
I'm pretty sure all those little buttons have key equivalents. The diplomacy button is shift-D and I think the histogram button is shift-H.
All the keyboard shortcuts are in the PC manual, at least they're in the PDF version (which should be on your game CD). They're on pages 196-200.
_/ C
I'm actually coming to think that it's not so much early expansion that's key, but securing borders and early *diplomacy*.
As Muff mentioned, getting (and keeping) rights of passage with your neighbors as soon as you have writing can save your butt. As can the mutual protection pacts later in the game.
When expanding, though, do it sparsely. Don't worry too much if they sneak a settler past your border -- if you're being efficient about building luxuries, you'll absorb that city before too long.
A technique I find useful to avoid surprise attacks is to keep in contact with all my neighbors (and everyone, after the oceans are open) every ten turns or so. If a nation thinks you're ignoring them, and they have the numbers, they'll waltz in. I've seen the exact behavior you describe from Big Gay Al, but when I give him a call every now and then he pretty much leaves me alone.
Another thing about early expansion -- go for luxuries and resources ASAP. If you're stuck in an area that's lean on luxuries and resources, bail. Unless you're a masochist and like to spend hours losing.
_/ C
I was referring to the GUI... and I don't consider the keyboard to be part of a GUI...
My point is, an interface should be accessible, it should make sense, and it should be easy to use. I don't think the Civ 3 is any of those.
Regardless, I still prefer it to Civ 2. 8)
--MH